Interview with Michelle Wu: The Fight Against Injustice on Taiwan’s College Campus

Though I do not remember when I added Michelle as a friend over Facebook, I started seeing her in action as an activist when controversy erupted over the appointment of National Taiwan University’s president. As an avid reader of Mandarin-language news in Taiwan, I was surprised to find that the version of “Wu I-Jou” as portrayed by the press was very much different from the “Michelle Wu” I saw on my Facebook. I was able to sit down in June at a conference held by the Formosan Association for Public Affairs in Washington, D.C. and discuss her role and experience as a student activist in Taiwan.

Milo: Tell me about yourself and your involvement in activist work in Taiwan.

Michelle: My name is Michelle I-jou Wu (吳奕柔). I’m a third-year law student and National Taiwan University Student Association’s (NTUSA) president.

I was involved in several incidents relating to social issues. In August 2018, we dealt with the controversy surrounding the appointment of economist Kuan Chung-min (管中閔) as NTU’s president. Between October and November 2018, we raised awareness on same-sex marriage in Taiwan. We rallied organized a march and discussed the conflict between referenda intended to hold back same-sex rights and the constitutional court ruling mandating the granting of same-sex marriage rights. 

After the results of the November 24th election in 2018, we dealt with another problem that emerged – the issue of “pro-unification media” (統媒) in Taiwan. We had an issue with misinformation, more specifically with CTi News (中天新聞) and how TV in public spaces were always broadcasting this channel without a choice by the viewers to switch. We talked with the school to make the TV remote in these spaces accessible by students. We went on to investigate how some TV news channels were reporting certain topics out of proportion for political purposes. 

Working on this topic we realized that though college students were discontent how widespread misinformation was in Taiwan, rallies on individual campuses was decentralized as a movement. We took the initiative to found the “Youth Combating Fake News Front” (青年抵制假新聞陣線). We wanted to reveal how certain news network were overly focused on certain topics or politicians, and show how an “informational warfare” is going on. Chinese money and forces are inserting themselves into Taiwanese media to support specific political candidates and propagate their own political beliefs. 

In May 2019, we had the bill implementing same-sex marriage, as we approached the two-year deadline mandated by Taiwan’s constitutional court. Many district-based legislators were under a lot of pressure from local voters, who were very much against giving rights to same-sex couples. We were rallying support at the Legislative Yuan during each of the readings when the bill to implement same-sex marriage rights was being passed.

Moving into June, we focused on the anti-extradition bill movement in Hong Kong. Though the issue is technically a foreign one to Taiwan, it would have affected many Taiwanese. I personally followed the issue since February, and I noticed that many NTU students who are activists would be affected. They are at risk of being extradited if this bill is to pass, and they would become a target of the Hong Kong government.

I thought this was something the NTUSA needed to have a position on. We held press conferences and many of the student association staff took shifts to attend events around town, and eventually we were able to rally much awareness for Hong Kong’s extradition bill and its effect on Taiwan.

On June 16th (the second weekend/round of protests in Hong Kong), many NGOs in Taiwan rallied up a “ten thousand people gathering” (萬人集會).  Representatives from many organizations I was involved in such as the Taiwan Youth Association for Democracy (TYAD 台灣青年民主協會), NTUSA, and Youth Combating Fake News Front joined this gathering. and we were able to consolidate support for Hong Kong amongst Taiwanese NGOs.

So first, on the election and appointment of the NTU president Kuan Chung-ming – can you tell me more about it, your role in it, and why it was significant for NTU and so widely covered by the press?

The voting process to select and confirm NTU’s president started two terms ago, before I was elected NTUSA’s president. Two terms ago, they put together the presidential search committee (遴選委員會), and one term ago my predecessor was the one who voted. I was involved in the post-confirmation controversies. My role was to represent the students and provide oversight – as we had the least conflict of interest in the process. However, NTUSA controlled only one of twenty-one votes. Besides being an elector and NTUSA’s President, I was also the representative of university affairs (校務會議代表) on the committee.

There were many issues with Kuan’s appointment I thought had to be pointed out. He once took a part-time job at a university in China, illegally. He is a director on the board of Taiwan Mobile (台灣大哥大). One search committee voting member, Richard Tsai (蔡明興), however, is also Taiwan Mobile’s vice-chairman. This was a potential conflict of interest that was not adequately disclosed to the rest of the search committee. 

The rest of the search committee insisted that there was not an issue with its own procedure. The Ministry of Education, which provided oversight given NTU’s status as a public university, said that they respected the committee’s decision. NTU’s administration said that they will approve the committee’s decision. It was as though the three were playing hot potato, with nobody really wanting to deal with the problems. That was the NTUSA’s role. When Kuan was about to be officially elected it appeared that there was no opposition. But I disagreed. They voted by majority and overrode me anyway. Nevertheless, at the time I expressed my position over social media – these posts can still be found on my Facebook wall. 

In August 2018, then-Minister of Education Yeh Jiunn-rong (葉俊榮) asked to meet with us. I gathered several other student association representatives to attend this conference. Though we were told that this was a closed-door, off the record meeting, we expected MOE to leak our discussion. We held a press conference right after we met with Minister Yeh since we did not want the narrative to be set for us. But before we left for the meeting, reporters were already calling to ask about it. This showed that they probably were the ones who leaked the information. It ended up that MOE never proposed any remedy to the disputes within the voting process. 

We also discovered that there was a list that was leaked, showing “assignment” of votes, suggesting that it was not really a real, democratic voting process after all. 

Maybe, but of course, what’s on the internet belongs to the internet and can’t be verified.

There wasn’t any law or bylaw banning exchanges of favors for votes in the selection process of NTU’s college president. When it becomes apparent that committee was one ruled by law (人治) than one governed by the rule of law, it puts the search committee – one that is supposed to be independent, fair, and professional – under the control of cutthroat politics and exploits. The voting process was apparent to have been done under outside influence and manipulation.

I felt like the students were in a unique position to provide oversight. Personally, I had no political ties, affiliation with any political party, and therefore no conflict of interest. I was able to, without worrying about my economic interests, point out what I perceive as injustices and call out parties that did not necessarily do their jobs in this search process.

I remember reading about your narrative of the events as they unfold on Facebook. They were very different from how the press portrayed the controversy. What did you think about the role of the media in the incident?

This was a politicized issue with party influences involved. Kuan has a political background. He is affiliated with the Chinese Nationalist Party (KMT). 

This I’m pretty sure we could trace the money to find out…

My issue is that the media would frequently depict me as a political affiliate – a pro-DPP henchperson who wanted to block Kuan. China Times is one that did this. Though I was only working on transparency and oversight, my work was portrayed as political. They would often present subjective narratives, using tabloidy terms like “slams” (強力抨擊) to describe my criticism.

I felt that since they had pre-determined political objectives to accomplish, they would try to inject subjective opinions into what is supposed to be unbiased news reports. You can actually compare my statements with press reports and see how different the words are between the press narratives. China Times won’t even publish some of my statements. If a paper doesn’t want their audience to know something, they just won’t show it to them. They usually have a predetermined political leaning, and distort the truth to their advantage.

Representing NTU’s student body, how was it like from the perspective of the students as you were representing them? I remember that there was a march at NTU when many senior KMT officials like Ma Ying-jeou showed up to support Kuan. How did the students feel?

This parade happened in May 2018 when it was nominally a student-led march to push political forces out of college campuses. But the ones we saw attending was Hung Hsiu-chu, Ma Ying-jeou, and a lot of KMT politicians.

(Asking a rhetorical question) So, they were NTU students at the time?

Nope. That was May last year. And from my personal observation they were mostly middle-aged participants around the age of fifty to sixty. I was there myself seeing it with my own eyes. It was clear that there were not really that many current NTU students. A “student-led” march was what they named it though.

I think most students did not really care. Some just felt that since Kuan was already appointed, there was not really a need for resistance. Most simply didn’t have the time to look into how complex the issue is, and it indeed is complex. It’s an issue with a high barrier of entry to understand. But given this they were pretty tolerant of my avid expression of personal views, without pushing back on me. I did campaign for NTUSA’s presidency by vowing to look into the controversy and provide oversight, though. So I was just representing them since they voted me in. 

Most NTU students just didn’t care. And in general Taiwanese outside the campus just floated around on the topic, had some loose knowledge, but did not really act on it.

After you finish your term as NTUSA’s president, what do you plan to move on to do?

Right now involved in the work of the Taiwan Youth Association for Democracy, and I plan to continue to go on with this for second half of 2019. Last year TYAD organized the Youth Homecoming Ride for Democracy (青年民主返鄉列車), when we organized 60 buses to send over 2,000 college students back home to vote. This was necessary since there is no absentee ballots in Taiwan. 

I wanted to take youth activism into high school campuses as well. TYAD held a high school students training workshop towards the end of 2018. Then in May 2019 we held a conference to recruit 40 partners for TYAD. Since MOE will not be holding a youth conference this year for highschool students, we will be planning one in their place. 

We founded a publication called Youth Viewpoint (青觀點). In March 2019, as we celebrated the fifth anniversary of the Sunflower Movement, we also invited speakers such as Lin Fei-fan (林飛帆) , Huang Yen-ru (黃燕茹), and others.

Generally, I expressed my position of social issues in NTU as a starting point. But I know that for me that the energy for youth activism and hope for societal changes will not be diminished after just a year. So TYAD will be my next base of operations.

I envision that in the future we could have young people make a difference within society, as the society also adapts for the youth (青年改變社會，社會因青年而改變).  

From my discussion with you, I feel like there is a sense of importance for democratic values and informational literacy, even beyond college campus. Do you think this is something the youth in Taiwan should put more emphasis on?

This is what TYAD stands for. We often see the older generation coming out to influence policies like pension reforms since it directly benefits them. But we do not see how the youth wishes to see a more sustainable policy. Young people lack a channel to voice their opinions. 

During the Hong Kong anti-extradition controversies, when issue-based NGOs in Taiwan came out to raise awareness, they also needed support from young people. To go back on NGO work – there is a need to present these issues for change-making. Democratic values can never be abandoned. 

Taiwan is unique is because we hold onto these values, which juxtaposes us with places like China. Though Taiwan is small, it allows the rest of the world to see Taiwan’s progress. This is what our activists in the previous generations had worked for. Young people can do a lot because we aren’t facing intense pressure over career, burden the society places on us. This allows us to organize and mobilize grassroots movements.

Remnants from the authoritarian era like White Terror and transitional justice still remain. We need to be aware of how they’re there because we did not have democracy and freedom back in the days. Activists at the time were under constant surveillance, and oftentimes they were imprisoned, or just “disappeared.” It is impossible to forget traumas and history like these. What is important is to translate our principles to actions and push Taiwan onward.

We also work on the defense of democracy – there is an information warfare waged upon us right now. We are facing issues as China continues to pressure Taiwan, using the media, foreign clients, and domestic proxies to infiltrate Taiwan, whether it’s defined as aggression on a country-to-country, country-to-province, or a province-to-province level (chuckles). 

We got a constitutional/national identity crisis here, don’t we?

China is using information and cyber warfare to invade Taiwan. 

Scholars such as Professor Puma Shen at National Taipei University are still building up models to understand these. What Russia has done in Europe and the US is unlike anything Taiwan is receiving from China. The former cases are just being investigated, while the case of Taiwan has not been established yet. 

Yep. Professor Shen once told me that if we’re seeing the unrestricted proliferation of disinformation, we’re already being invaded in some form, invisibly by an information war. We’re at war in a sense. Personally I can’t give you an exact answer on this, since I’m not an expert. However, I think you can see that some media are already reporting on issues in a politicized matter, like in favor of KMT presidential candidate Han Kuo-yu or China. Many Taiwanese are using slogans like “1992 consensus” and “two strait, one people” slogans to, in a way, sell out Taiwan’s sovereignty. 

What exactly is this so-called “consensus,” again?

What is in a consensus? China says “one country, two system,” and Taiwan’s KMT says “one china, separate representation.” Essentially there is no consensus as they hold different positions. 

But the issue is very distant for the everyday Taiwanese, allowing politicians to obfuscate reality using these slogans. A Taiwanese politician, Han Kuo-yu, entered China’s Hong Kong Liaison Office (中聯辦). Another, Legislator May Chin (高金素梅), who occupies a seat reserved for Indigenous Taiwanese, advocated for China during her visit to Beijing. She clearly did not represent the views of indigenous youth in Taiwan, as the Indigenous Youth Front (原住民青年陣線) made a protest statement right after her visit.

Taiwan’s democratic values are being undermined. We need to do more to defend our democracy and give voice to the youth.

Alright. Thank you for all these information. Let me throw you a wildcard question to conclude our interview: what’s your favorite food in a Taiwanese night market?

(Silent for a second) Taiwanese fried chicken iâm-soo-ke (鹽酥雞). I like it especially when it’s hot and steamy. And there also must be basil leaves and chopped garlic added. I usually have it with an order of Hong Kong Lemon Iced Tea.